Chat on 1-25-08

‹gracepub› Okay- everyone - do this exercise.
‹gracepub› Put a paper on this screen, so you can only read the left half of the chat. Force yourself to go through the whole screen…and then tell me how you FEEL emotionally
‹Margie› I feel like I missed out on something
‹kims› um yeah
‹Margie› I couldn’t read the full sentences
‹gracepub› Do you want your story’s reader to FEEL (emotionally) like you do now
‹kims› good point
‹Margie› definitely not
‹TGWB› I feel like I have to be intuitive to know what was going on… A normal state of affairs for me and my life…
‹gracepub› Most of the ‘don’t do this’ in writing is not to handle the GRAMMAR in a story, but to control the reader’s feelings and emotions.
‹gracepub› that confuses new readers….like showing….
‹kims› well that’s what keeps us reading i suppose, eh?
‹gracepub› the purpose of showing is not to earn a 100/100 paper - but to incite emotions from the reader
‹gracepub› Remember the chat where I was talking along and then swore?
‹gracepub› Do you all remember how it jarred everyone.
‹Margie› yes
‹Margie› we didn’t expect it
‹gracepub› what I did was used a word that incited an emotion
‹TGWB› Ahhhh! but isn’t controlling the emotions the main point of being a good story teller and story maker?
‹gracepub› writers who show do this…they replace weak verbs and random words with words that incite emotion
‹kims› i call them mood words
‹Margie› I like that Kim!
‹kims› if you want the reader to feel depressed use dark mood words
‹kims› but! i am sooo just learning how to do this
‹gracepub› for example - the word blue, when repeated at least once a page for 2 or 3 pages, will help the reader feel depressed
‹gracepub› A knife held at a woman’s throat is just narration
‹gracepub› but, The red butterfly knife slid over a curve of skin
‹kims› delicious
‹gracepub› that incites an emotion.
‹Margie› yes it does
‹kims› makes me wanna read!
‹gracepub› but, if we are not writing a cozy mystery or soft thriller
‹gracepub› then we can change the words a little
‹TGWB› She could feel the cold steel of the knife, against her throat, the blade like a razor started to penetrate the skin, the feeling of a paper cut
‹TGWB› and a warm trickle could be felt below the point of contact.
‹gracepub› The butterfly knife snapped. The pale light flickered on the red handle. Moment’s passed as the blade pressed hard against her throat.
‹gracepub› The white spots truned red, then faded black as her lungs burst.
‹kims› Patricia ran screaming from the dirty trailer when she saw the blood dripping from her stepfather’s knife
‹gracepub› K - Kim - you wrote this backwards….you have the idea…but you narrated it.
‹gracepub› When you are writing ‘fear’ you need to stop describing and use only words that incite emotion…
‹gracepub› the dirty trailer is too distant for the reader…you have to move the story inside the reader’s head… so they become Patricia in fear
‹gracepub› the reader is no farther than patricia’s eyes, her thoughts…
‹TGWB› Yeah, my attempt went into narration towards the end. oopps?
‹gracepub› read my descrition again…notice that everything in it could be your own thoughts if you were in that situation.
‹kims› wow yeah i see what you mean
‹gracepub› Kim - you didn’t make a mistake…in fact, if you were writing a cozy then you wouldn’t have a problem…
‹gracepub› because you don’t want to scare readers in a cozy mystery
‹kims› lol it was not my writing… was something Rick Mofina posted
‹kims› he writes thrillers
‹gracepub› but if you are writing a thriller - then you want to put the reader in danger.
‹kims› i joked with him about reading his books in the daylight
‹kims› cuz of the dripping blood
‹gracepub› Well - Rick needs to meet Lea
‹gracepub› Now- if Steven King helped Rick the phrase would sound like this
‹kims›  aint she the bees knees?
‹gracepub› oh yes  -
‹gracepub› she ‘gets’ fear
‹gracepub› you know how us old writers learned this? We were told to study propoganda writing
‹kims› what in the world is that?
‹gracepub› just type the word propoganda into your browser. In 5 hours you will not only have the ability to write dynamite books - but you can make your
‹gracepub› husband believe that all arguements are his fault and you win every time D:
‹Margie› lol Suz
‹kims› hahaha
‹gracepub› you laugh - but I am not kidding…words have the power to control a nation…as Hitler proved
‹kims› hey words are ruling the presidential race here in the states — no doubt!
‹Margie› Yes they are
‹gracepub› look at the media and how they use nothing more than pictures or words to convince the US to go to war, or women to be skinny
‹Margie› very true
‹gracepub› learning to master the art of propoganda writing is not hard.
‹kims› oh i am so mad at the news media, they sensationalize everything
‹Margie› that’s why we don’t believe anything they say
‹Margie› they’ve lost their credibility
‹kims› that’s true
Tina has joined the chat room.
‹TGWB› And when someone comes along telling the truth they are not believed either.
‹kims› hi tina
‹TGWB› Hi Tina
‹Tina› hi gang
‹Margie› Hi
‹gracepub› Kim: Steven King - The floresent light turned the dripping blood into black splatters on her father’s hands. It pooled among the filth on the trailer’s floor.
‹gracepub› Patricia heard someone scream. Her lungs hurt. The cold air burned her lungs as she ran.
‹kims› yummy !
‹Margie› yucky!
‹kims› much better than my attempt
‹Margie› sorry Kim…..couldn’t resist
‹kims› lol Margie
‹gracepub› Kim - that is the art of propoganda.
‹gracepub› I used words: black, splatter, pooled, filth, scream, hurt, burned….
‹gracepub› I didn’t worry about ‘painting a picture’ but tried to write in a way that used emotionally painful words
‹TGWB› I think of Edgar Allen Poe, when I see sentence structure like that.
‹gracepub› K- I am going to give you 10 words. I want you to try to create a scene with an emotion. I am going to use fear because it is the easiest to incite.
‹kims› ok
‹gracepub› black, pain, shot, ruptured, wet, cold, vomit,
‹gracepub› In some cases, I will collect 20 or 30 words that will incite the emotion I want - Then I write the scene
‹kims› ok how’s this?
‹kims› The black clouds roiled above him. He could barely move as the pain rippled up his leg from the ruptured vein. Blood shot in a thin spurt above his wet sock.
‹kims› Cold fear gripped his entire body as he struggled not to vomit.
‹kims› well … maybe not very fear-y
‹gracepub› K - kim - you are still outside of his head gracepub
‹gracepub› Black clouds roiled. The pain rippled up his leg. Blood shot from above his sock, in perfect rhythm with the pulse of his heart. (what is cold fear?) Cold sweat
‹gracepub› beaded his lip. (what does gripped his body feel like) His stomack tightened. Bile burned his throat.
‹gracepub› You did good - just take out the narration words
‹kims› see? it pays to rewrite
‹gracepub› try again
‹gracepub› you are about 80% there
‹Tina› ok…have fun with mine:
‹Tina› I tried to run away from him. I was almost to the corner when gunfire ruptured the air. I felt searing pain in my side, but pushed on. He must have shot me, but I
‹Tina› didn’t care. I had to get away. My life depended on it. I groped my shirt, trying to see if I was bleeding, but darkness closed in. Then everything went black.
‹Tina› I woke sometime later, shivering and cold. Then my side throbbed and I remembered what happened. I touched a dark wet spot on my shirt and it was sticky.
‹Tina› Oh God. It was my blood. I was going to vomit.
‹gracepub› No - this is all narrative because you are telling me something that happened to you instead of letting me experience it for myself
‹gracepub› Tina - I woke sometime later…..narrative
‹gracepub› You guys are trying to tell me something that happened to you
‹Tina› ahhh
‹gracepub› To make me feel an emotion - "I" need to become the character
‹gracepub› the ‘thoughts’ need to go through my mind
‹kims› Pain from a ruptured vein sent him reeling in the street, vomiting until there was nothing left to give. The cold wet ground grazed his cheek. Warm blood trickled
‹kims› from the corner of his mouth.
‹kims› no no i see it now
‹gracepub› ’sent him’ - I am not a him
‹kims› its like i am watching him
‹kims› and telling you what i see
‹gracepub› but other than that - you have it.
‹TGWB› In the basement the filth was so thick that even in the middle of the day there was no light to penetrate and the sound of a gun shot was heard when suddenly the
‹TGWB› black room was lit and revealed the body of a boy a bullet ruptured his intestines the body writhing in pain bloody and wet caused a cold sweat to overcome
‹TGWB› many of those standing near and one after another they began to vomit from the sight of one disgusting event to the smell that filled the air as they were
‹TGWB› all caught in the mire.
‹gracepub› Sticky Blood left a warm spot.
‹gracepub› TGWB - that is great grammar, and literary narrative. But we are discussing ’showing’ right here
‹gracepub› other than that - it is great
‹gracepub› Pain from a ruptured vein sent him reeling in the street, vomiting until there was nothing left to give. The cold wet ground grazed his cheek. Warm blood
‹gracepub› trickled from the corner of his mouth
‹gracepub› REwrite:
‹gracepub› 1. You have to start the paragraph with him, but then let me become the character….so keep pronouns at the beginning
‹kims› He reeled in the street.
‹gracepub› He reeled into the street. A blood stain covered the lower jeans and shoes. Vomit surged, gaging him.
‹gracepub› Kim- Just He Reeled.
‹TGWB› He reeled in the street feeling the pain, intense pain,
‹gracepub› Okay - here is another way I learned
‹gracepub› YOu start with a wide angled camera…so you start the scene by introducing the street….then you narrow the zoom to him, then you narrow the zoom more
‹gracepub› and more until you are in the reader’s head
‹kims› hey i like that!
‹kims› (i do photography and videography–now yer talking!)
‹gracepub› The street lights cast an eery glow on the wet pavement. He reeled. Lost in the pain and struggle to keep vomit down. The blood stain spread. Balance failed
‹gracepub› as a weight settled on him.
‹TGWB› When you make that connection between writing or what you are writing and what the reader is reading then you have something to work with.
‹gracepub› Notice how I started in the street, to him, and then I ended with him - but everything in between SOUNDS like a thought - a thought that the reader will
‹gracepub› be ‘tricked’ into thinking is their own
‹kims› i love that analogy though… really makes sense to me
‹gracepub› Of course - it takes more than 10 lines to do it right…but you get the point
‹kims› yes
‹kims› and this is a method for all scenes, for all emotions?
‹gracepub› yes-
‹gracepub› but of course you don’t want to overdo it in everything.
‹gracepub› not every scene is emotional.
‹gracepub› but it can be shown
‹kims› oh no. i mean that would just be… melodrama after a while
‹gracepub› like- if I was writing this - I would start about 10 pages before using words in the narration to start inciting the emotion.
‹gracepub› You also want to follow a pattern for emotions…ie, you can’t go from a happy feeling to a terrifying one.
‹gracepub› you need to start with a bit of stress, a little confusion, an unsettled feeling of being out of control, then apprehension, then fear
‹gracepub› any thoughts?
‹TGWB› But each writer has to have their own unique style. NO?
‹gracepub› no
‹gracepub› not if you want to sell books
‹gracepub› Okay - try this
‹TGWB› It all sounds like you have to follow a particular pattern or style.
‹gracepub› I hate you. That is what I said to Jill. She didn’t want to Come home for Christmas. The only way I could vent my anger was saying, I hate you.
‹gracepub› Now - if you were going to buy a book and you opened it and read that - would you pay $12.99 for the book.
‹kims› ah
‹gracepub› now - go back to the ‘fear descriptions’ and tell me if you would pay for a book written like that?
‹TGWB› Not for an opener, but if that was in the book and it had to do something with the story plot then it might be very appropriate?
‹gracepub› I rejected a book this week that was like that. The author said ‘I told my story’
‹gracepub› unfortunatley - when I asked him, "Can you tell me who will pay $15.99 to read your story?" He couldn’t
‹kims› The phone clattered from my hand, striking against the dull painted wall. I hate you. I’d said that to Jill. She wasn’t coming home for Christmas. Not now.
‹kims› And she would never know I didn’t mean it.
‹gracepub› because when it all comes down to it - books are a marketable commodity like tomatoes. You wouldn’t buy a new genetic tomato that tasted like vinegar …
‹gracepub› because that is not what you want from a tomatoe
‹kims› lol
‹gracepub› Kim - I would remove the ‘I’d said’ sentence….and then you have it- you got it
‹gracepub› well - people do not buy books that don’t give the reader what they want
‹TGWB› Some people would have a hard time selling anything because they aren’t laying down a good foundation to work with.
‹gracepub› when it all comes down to it - getting published has everything with sales
‹gracepub› TGWB - right
‹kims› i am in a discussion on a loop where the question is does it matter if you don’t know what genre your book is
‹gracepub› ROlf - well I get that a lot
‹kims› i think sales and marketing are a big huge thing
‹gracepub› I just ask the writer - "Where will the bookstore owner put your book on the shelf?’
‹kims› so unpubbed authors asking this question leads me to think so many don’t know it
‹gracepub› in the history section? Maybe in the business section? How about just in a bargain bin
‹kims› that’s sort of what i told him… because if you dont know where your book belongs on the shelf then you are in trouble when you try to sell it
‹TGWB› Let’s go to the bargain bin after we have been on a shelf in the right section first.
‹kims› i have this book thing and it is about this stuff and oh yeah i want you to read it
‹kims› i am with you TGWB
‹gracepub› Okay - what if I wrote a mystery with no murder
‹gracepub› or a romance where the hero doesn’t show up until page 100 and he was a jerk
‹gracepub› or a thriller where the ‘evil’ was just a mean german sheperd down the street and people get bit, but no one dies.
‹gracepub› or a horror with no death
‹gracepub› Now - tell me if genre is important
‹kims› well he is like stuck on this situation… he cannot determine if his book is YA or literary mainstream
‹gracepub› The word ‘genre’ means ’story classification’ -
‹kims› i keep telling him it is YA, nevermind the literary and the mainstream
‹gracepub› without a genre, I cannot even Apply for a CIP, ISBN, or put the book in the distributor’s catalogue
‹gracepub› YA is a TYPE - all the genres are under it
‹gracepub› well- except maybe slasher and erotic
‹kims› rofl
‹gracepub› The types are: mainstream, category, YA, indi,
‹gracepub› then all the genres fit into this
‹kims› well it is historical
‹kims› so a historical YA?
‹gracepub› there are YA books that fit the historical genre
‹gracepub› yes
‹gracepub› there are romances, mystery, fantasy, thrillers, coming of age(women’s fic) all in the YA type of book
‹kims› whew now see how easy that was? why ever is he having so much trouble???
‹gracepub› Kim - your book is very genre …it isn’t your problem…you wrote Avenging Angel right?
‹kims› yes
‹gracepub› yea- We went through your story arc, and there wasn’t anything to rewrite
‹gracepub› everything was in the right place at the right time.
‹kims› it was?? oh wow
‹gracepub› so even if you don’t study genre - you read it enough to know what makes a good mystery
‹kims› i am trying … man, i am reading a book a week now
‹gracepub› cool
‹gracepub› well- that is why you got a writer’s contract from me
‹kims› *bowing* thank you ma’am
‹gracepub› (dragon lady who once rejected 3000 ms in a row)
‹gracepub› Before we accept a book - we run it against a story arc and see if there is good structure
‹kims› 3000 — good grief… did those all come in one year?
‹gracepub› if the structure is good we look at prose next. You can fix poor grammer, but you can’t fix bad structure
‹gracepub› All those came in one month
‹kims› YIKES!
‹gracepub› lol
‹kims› how do you do it? i mean that’s a LOT of books — is everyone in the world a dang writer?
‹gracepub› well- 90% of them were rejected before I finished page 1
‹gracepub› most manuscripts submitted are written by people who have no idea why people buy books
‹gracepub› I’ve had some real dozies
‹gracepub› At least 1/3 of all books are rejected because they are written about bad things that happen to someone
‹gracepub› like - why do I want to know about you being molested?
‹kims› someone i know wrote a book in a month and had NO formatting, NO punctuation etc. and wanted to submit it. i said what?? arent you going to fix it?
‹kims› they said, huh? doesnt the editor do that?
‹gracepub› I don’t want to know what some perv did to you
‹kims› ugh
‹gracepub› I would say that I have had …hum… almost 10,000 ms submissions which were either ‘the governent is out to get me’ or ‘I was raped’
‹kims› good grief
‹gracepub› Now - go into any bookstore and see how many books are there on those topics….no one wants to read them
‹gracepub› they don’t sell
‹gracepub› Unless - of course - you are writing a political thriller or an erotica
‹kims› i know i do not have any on my keep shelf… not in my garbage either
‹gracepub› so I had about 1000 ms that month which I didn’t even bother to read
‹gracepub› rolf
‹kims› do you have an "auto reject" button on your computer?
‹kims› oh i am so registering that trademark
‹TGWB› Now if the story moves through a bad event and there is a good outcome from the experience…
‹gracepub› rolf - fairly close - I have a form rejection story.
‹gracepub› so - TGWB
‹gracepub› Start your story at the good experience…then publishers will read it
‹gracepub› I mean - go to
‹gracepub› Amazon- and type in rape….there are no ‘recovery stories’
‹gracepub› they are either self help or they are erotica
‹gracepub› and that is Amazon! The largest bookstore in the world
‹TGWB› I’m into how to write now… LOL?
‹gracepub› Well - I have a story.
‹gracepub› I always say to writers:
‹gracepub› "If you had $40 000 to build a new kitchen and I said to you. ‘I’ve always wanted to be a cabinet maker. I haven’t learned anything or bought the right tools,
‹gracepub› but I am sure I can do a good job."
‹gracepub› Would you give me your money?
‹kims› lol — no but if you can do wallpaper we are gonna talk
‹gracepub› lol
‹TGWB› You are right, I’d be looking to another cabinet maker with some experience, but that doesn’t mean that the new kid on the block doesn’t have good insight or skills,
‹TGWB› the kid certainly needs someone to believe in his ability, would I be taking a chance on the kid? I’m too much of a do it myself type of person…
‹TGWB› I’m the kid and I’ve got to prove it to me… I can do this…  Been there and I’ve done so much already…
‹gracepub› Right - but when you don’t learn to write - and you submit a manuscript - you are asking the publisher to do just that
‹TGWB› Yes, I’m on a very steep learning curve, straight up…
‹gracepub› put their money and time into a project made by someone with no experience
‹TGWB› That is why I haven’t submitted any manuscripts yet…
‹gracepub› that is why so many books are rejected
‹gracepub› in fact, most publishers are starved for books.
‹gracepub› if writers wrote good books, there would be more acceptances.
‹kims› i think the first step to getting the tools, and learning what is needed to build that cabinet is BELIEVE in yourself
‹gracepub› so - any more questions about proofreading?
‹TGWB› Sure, a team working together is better than an individual for all things, working together is better than working alone that is all I’m saying.
‹gracepub› I am not sure what you mean about a team….
‹TGWB› And proofreading is better when done with help.
‹gracepub› we do not change the author’s book -
‹gracepub› and our proofreaders work individually
‹gracepub› it is illegal for an editor to change a book without the author’s okay or consent
‹TGWB› No, I wouldn’t change the author’s book, that isn’t what I meant, more of a working to help people write, type of team encouraging, and even helping with sugestions,
‹TGWB› you have a great thing with your chats, it is going to be a benefit for you and others.
‹gracepub› So - any more questions about proofreading and editing?
‹TGWB› It has been a long night, thank you for your time.
‹gracepub› k
‹Margie› Yes Suz thanks
‹Margie› You always provide such great information
‹Margie› See you all next week!